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楼主: SniperNo.1

[讨论] 求F15和Su27格斗问题

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发表于 2010-1-9 21:57:57 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 Mutha 于 2010-1-9 20:55 发表
Boyd杯具就杯具在他入了Air Farce……他要是个Navy的,估计成就会更大……至少不至于被排挤得那么厉害~


二岭斯是在挑起党争啊
发表于 2010-1-9 22:00:25 | 显示全部楼层
27要是有15的动力表现我就笑了~
发表于 2010-1-9 22:04:00 | 显示全部楼层
最大攻角不是拉出来的
 楼主| 发表于 2010-1-9 22:18:31 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 ko11d 于 2010-1-9 22:04 发表
最大攻角不是拉出来的


我一般都是350节进入的格斗啊~~~但是如果太激动的话会拉出来的特别是键盘~~~~ 大多数新鸟都有这个毛病啊~~~
发表于 2010-1-9 22:39:05 | 显示全部楼层

回复 19# SniperNo.1 的帖子

回去先把理论搞懂吧

最大攻角是由飞机决定的
发表于 2010-1-9 23:17:37 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 kfb911 于 2010-1-9 20:42 发表
请问Hose的资料在哪里可以看到啊?能下载得到吗?蛮感兴趣的。

另外,Hose是70年代海军的头牌吗?可惜不是跟Boyd同时代的,如果两个对干不知谁更厉害。

建议收了Robert Wilcox的Wings of Fury

另外就是www.tomcat-sunset.org有他一个板块
发表于 2010-1-9 23:35:33 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 Mutha 于 2010-1-9 19:43 发表

AIM/ACE的结论:

Hoser: 1.在视距内,携带全向格斗弹和机炮的机动性良好的轻型战斗机,表现甚至要好于装备了头瞄的双座重型机。2.如果重型机不能接受对轻型机2:1的交换比,那么他们最好不要进入视距内;3.提高重 ...


俄。。。。。如果他们的结论是方程该多好。。。。。文字这东西太秣陵两可了

[ 本帖最后由 aceforever 于 2010-1-9 23:37 编辑 ]
发表于 2010-1-9 23:41:05 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 SniperNo.1 于 2010-1-9 22:18 发表


我一般都是350节进入的格斗啊~~~但是如果太激动的话会拉出来的特别是键盘~~~~ 大多数新鸟都有这个毛病啊~~~

我听说AF党被河蟹抄家了……在此表示慰问~
发表于 2010-1-10 00:29:18 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 SniperNo.1 于 2010-1-9 21:37 发表
你们在格斗的时候有开襟翼么???会出现最大攻角么??一般是在什么时候才会拉出最大攻角???



这些问题的统一答案就是:看情况...

你的任何一个动作,都不会取得决定性的优势,所以你的这些问题,也就不会有确切答案。
去把幻影2000打打吧,AI也就可以打打2000
发表于 2010-1-10 00:32:58 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 ko11d 于 2010-1-9 22:39 发表
回去先把理论搞懂吧

最大攻角是由飞机决定的



楼主对于最大功角的理解可能是抖震功角吧,抖震AOA时飞机已经开始失速了。
这个AOA下机翼上表面的气流开始分离了,如果继续增大AOA,最终气流会“全部”全部分离....

于是真正失速了......
发表于 2010-1-10 00:41:34 | 显示全部楼层
大攻角可以产生更大的升力和过载,同时也产生更大的升至阻力,当你不在乎速度或者需要减小速度的时候就可以拉大攻角。
发表于 2010-1-10 00:47:39 | 显示全部楼层

Magic对于攻角和失速的论述,写得很好,没空翻,先放这儿~

Of course the new vectored thrust (and LOTS of it) and computerized canards and stuff make the modern day "cobra" stunts possible, but they are derivatives of good old manual hand-flying (with zero computerized flight controls) that some of the old "good moves" were.  You had "controlled" out-of-control flight departures in your bag of tricks, in addition to things such as PMC, which, as Hoser alludes to, is not a departure at all -- you never "stall" the aircraft since you operate at and below zero "angle of attack" (AOA) during the very slow speed maneuver.

The AOA is the angle at which the RELATIVE airflow (straight up, level, 60 degrees nose up/down, whatever) is attacking the wing while smoothly flowing over it.  Once that angle keeps increasing due to increased pitch control forces, it reaches a certain point (due to the design of the wing), when the smooth liftie-creating airflow is instantly, ABRUBTLY, disrupted (turbulent flow) and lift on the wing goes to zero.

Two things can increase lift on the wing -- faster airflow, and/or increasing the AOA which is the angle at which the airflow hits the wing -- like your hand out the window of a car at 60mph.  An airplane can "stall" at ANY speed -- even at really fast speeds --as long as "stall AOA" pull is reached where the air can no longer smoothly flow over the wing.  At higher airspeeds, of course tight hard turns result, meaning much higher "g" forces.  Still, high speed "stall" can still occur if enough "g"/pull is applied until that SAME stall AOA is reached.

The airplane doesn't stall as a function of speed -- it stalls as a function of a specific AOA -- only.  The higher the speed, though, the more "pull" (read "g") is required to reach that same AOA.

The flip side is an airplane can fly at any speed -- even well BELOW the civilian mind's "stall speeds" approaching zero -- as long as the current AOA is below stall AOA.  For example, in a pure vertical hammerhead stall, one is not actually stalled, but still "flying" the airplane at zero AOA while STILL controlling the plane of rotation with the tiny amount of airflow over the wingtips which are still "moving."  The wingtips are moving through the air via the airplane's "mass" rotating about the yaw axis due to last second rudder kick while a little airspeed still remained while decelerating to zero.

So, the lift on the faster (outboard relative to rotation) wing wants to roll the airplane on its back, so, even though airspeed is showing near zero, slight opposite airleron control is required to prevent that.  So, one is "flying" the airplane at near zero airspeed via aileron at the top of the hammerhead since the wingtip is STILL moving through the air.   (Some can be controlled at minus airspeeds; Shawn Tucker does it in tailslides at airshows all the time, and we used to have that big stab on the F-14 control a pure vertical nose in contest tailslides also!).  Anyway, one can be in full control, at zero AOA, zero airspeed, and NOT "stalled".  IOW, the rotational energy of the airplane's mass is still being "controlled" with rudder and aileron inputs to that tiny airflow over them, with pitch/elevator input keeping us weightless by pushing to zero AOA.

So, it is the ANGLE at which the "wind" is meeting the wing chord line that detremines stall; NOT the speed of the airflow over the wing (which only increases TOTAL lift; just as increased AOA also does).  Typical "stall speed" thinking for a X,000 lb airplane means constant altitude (i.e. the wing creates exactly X,000 lbs of lift) sitting in your seat at exactly 1"g" like now at your computer with the engines pushing exactly enough thrust/power to counteract drag for a constant airspeed.  Then pull power and one starts slowing down and decreasing lifties on the wing due to slower airflow (Bernoulli's principle).  To maintain constant altitude (relative wind on wing is parallel to the ground), then, slowly increasing the nose angle up (higher AOA) relative to the "ground parallel" wind for level flight increases the lift via that increased AOA so that X,000 lbs of lift is still generated so that level flight is still maintained -- but at that slower airspeed/increased AOA.

This increasing pitch attitude in level flight (relative wind parallel to the ground) will continue as speed decreases until the angle of the "relative wind" to the wing is so high the airflow suddenly separates, becomes turbulent, and lift goes to zero (STALL).  That angle is stall AOA, and was from a slow, constant altitude, 1"g" stall.  Also, I could "pull" at much higher speeds (with resultant nose pitch rates) and still make that SAME angle between the "relative wind" and the wing MAC (mean aerodynamic chord).  The stall will occur at that exact same angle as in the 1"g" case.  It just occurs at higher speeds and higher "g"s because we are now TURNING (instead of just staying level at 1"g" counteracting our weight vs. gravity).

So, one could be 70 degrees nose up, at any speed, and if one pulls hard enough, one can reach stall AOA and stall.  If I do not pull during that nose high deceleration, but I instead push forward as I slow down (approaching a tail slide condition), I keep the AOA near zero and stall AOA never occurs.  The airplane can be controlled without stalls at VERY slow speeds if elevator control is precisely used to keep it near zero AOA (basically weightless) conditions and away from postive (or negative) stall AOA's.

Once at very slow airspeed, however, It takes VERY LITTLE "pull" on the elevator/stabilator at those very slow speeds to go from low AOA to stall AOA in a split second.  The opposite is true at high speed.  It takes a lot of pull force and/or effort (in old normal hand flown jets) zinging along at, say 400 knots to even get close to stall AOA, cuz "g" force limits from the centrifugal forces of the resultant turn are reached before stall AOA can be reached.

Anyway, this low speed, low AOA maneuvering is key to a maneuver such as the PMC.  One is fully "in control" and not "departed" from controlled flight (although "controlled" high AOA "departures" are also used to great advantage in other scenarios -- as Skogs mentioned, for example, in getting that fast roll rate out of the F-14's normally "glacial" roll rate).  IMO, such moves could be called the non-computerized, hand-flown "cobras" of their day!!   

VR Magic
发表于 2010-1-10 00:54:35 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 Mutha 于 2010-1-10 00:47 发表
Of course the new vectored thrust (and LOTS of it) and computerized canards and stuff make the modern day "cobra" stunts possible, but they are derivatives of good old manual hand-flying (with zero co ...



那个“活体ACMI”的人真没故事讲啊
发表于 2010-1-10 01:04:07 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 iceviper 于 2010-1-10 00:54 发表



那个“活体ACMI”的人真没故事讲啊

擦……

Snort能没故事讲?!第一个驾驶F-14在航母上降落的飞行学员(之前的都是老鸟);在利比亚跟MiG-25超音速格斗(也是TMD点儿背,因为僚机加油动作慢了,被交换CAP Station,没打着Su-22);作为中队长率领VF-33打完沙漠风暴。
Wings of Fury第一章就是他,第二章才是Hoser……

Snort跟Hoser比,他的操控技术可能不见得更高明,但他的优势在于计谋,他总能出现在“最不按牌理出牌”的位置。他的外号是A bag of trick

这是那帖子里Snort本人唯一的手迹

Rattler.... It was f---ing perfect.... Belching smoke on start, unfolding the wings, 5 cessna/piper spam cans parting and paying homage at the hold short, 3000 RPM and 52 inch's on take off, down the beach at 50 ft making the feathered gull wing birds scatter as their "Klingon War Vessel" brother roared on top of the surf, climb and then dive into the aerobatic box next to the runway at 325 knots, Oil coolers open and the sound of whistling death rifling through skys over the intercoastal waterway and St Augustine Beach, a pull to the vertical, holding the vertical line until knot meter showed 135 (4000 ft) then a gentle pull back to a 90 degree down line, knot meter saw 50 as nose broke the horizon....perfect, One potato two potato three potato on down line then half roll and smooth accelerating pull into a full Cuban, followed by graceful barrel rolls, slow rolls and point rolls.  Down the runway at 20 feet 300 kts, pull, roll to 90 deg pull to downwind, throttle back to 20 inches, gear dwn at 170 kts, 20 deg of flaps, rudder trim to 6 right, off the 180 at 150 kts, Perfect 180... 2/3 of a mile 1200 ft, 45 deg angle of bank, 30 deg of flaps, boost pump on, mixture full rich,thru 90 50 deg/full flaps, double check gear, slight overshooting crosswind., little throttle 30 inches, prop full fwd, little more throttle to compensate for full pitch, easing out angle of bank just prior to threshold 115 knot, throttle to idle going wings level in flare, wheels squeak on the numbers (no ****), hold tail up, dancing rudders stay straight, left aileron to keep left wing down in crosswind, lower tail, rudder and brake dance to stay on center line... Which you can't see. Down to taxi speed... Flaps up, canopy open, almost stopped, unlock tail wheel, mixture to normal, taxi to parking, fold wings, 1300 rpm for 60 sec's to scavange oil, mixture off, mags off, radios off, batt off, unstrap and take a deep breath knowing you maybe the luckiest old guy in the world at that moment.

Snort

[ 本帖最后由 Mutha 于 2010-1-10 01:07 编辑 ]
发表于 2010-1-10 01:59:04 | 显示全部楼层
不行,此人是我偶像
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